Discussion:
DVB-T receiver comparison
friedtj
2014-08-25 17:06:11 UTC
Permalink
In order to quantify my abilty to receive weather satellite images using DVB-T running with GNURadio,
I have setup a very simple experiment as follows:
* tune a frequency synthesizer to 137 MHz, FM modulation, 5 kHz deviation and 2400 Hz FM frequency
* frequency synthesizer output power setup to -91 or -101 dBm (same setting for all receivers, 2 sets of measurements)
* connect the output of the synthesizer to the input of the DVB-T (in all cases, a new BNC connector was solder instead
of the original 75-ohm antenna connector),
* plot the RF signal FFT and the FFT of a WBFM demodulator block as found in GNURadio (always same settings: 30 dB IF
gain and 30 dB RF gain)
* assess the receiver quality by the signal to noise ratio of the FM output.

Is this a reasonable way of assessing a receiver sensitivity ? Is there some sort of well defined "protocol for
assessing a receiver quality for small signal detection ?

The results of my measurements are found at http://jmfriedt.free.fr/dvbt-comparison.html => is it reasonable
from these graphs to conclude that the FC0013 based receiver is by far the most sensitive, despite the non-linearities
visible in the demodulation process ?

Thanks, JM
--
JM Friedt, FEMTO-ST Time & Frequency/SENSeOR, 32 av. observatoire, 25044 Besancon, France
David Basden
2014-08-26 01:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by friedtj
In order to quantify my abilty to receive weather satellite images using DVB-T running with GNURadio,
* tune a frequency synthesizer to 137 MHz, FM modulation, 5 kHz deviation and 2400 Hz FM frequency
* frequency synthesizer output power setup to -91 or -101 dBm (same setting for all receivers, 2 sets of measurements)
* connect the output of the synthesizer to the input of the DVB-T (in all cases, a new BNC connector was solder instead
of the original 75-ohm antenna connector),
* plot the RF signal FFT and the FFT of a WBFM demodulator block as found in GNURadio (always same settings: 30 dB IF
gain and 30 dB RF gain)
* assess the receiver quality by the signal to noise ratio of the FM output.
I'd suggest using something other than FM if you can find a good reference. Looking at the output of an
FM demod is going to mask most of the differences you're looking for, and you're much more likely to get
a very sharp cutoff between having good output, and not having an intelligible output at all.

David
friedtj
2014-08-26 05:44:19 UTC
Permalink
I have just reproduced all measurements making sure to compensate for frequency offset
between the synthesizer and the local oscillators of the DVB-T, and added a table summarizing
the measurements (peak power and noise floor of the RF and FM-demodulated signals).

Could you please comment on the FM demodulation sudden drop ? This is indeed what I observe but
I fail understanding the cause. I have access to most modulation schemes: could you please advise
on which would be most relevant ? I have selected FM because it is the modulation scheme I am
aiming at in the case of NOAA POES reception, although the 1500 MHz measurements are targeted towards
GPS reception so PSK would be more relevant indeed.

Thanks, JM
Post by David Basden
Post by friedtj
In order to quantify my abilty to receive weather satellite images using DVB-T running with GNURadio,
* tune a frequency synthesizer to 137 MHz, FM modulation, 5 kHz deviation and 2400 Hz FM frequency
* frequency synthesizer output power setup to -91 or -101 dBm (same setting for all receivers, 2 sets of measurements)
* connect the output of the synthesizer to the input of the DVB-T (in all cases, a new BNC connector was solder instead
of the original 75-ohm antenna connector),
* plot the RF signal FFT and the FFT of a WBFM demodulator block as found in GNURadio (always same settings: 30 dB IF
gain and 30 dB RF gain)
* assess the receiver quality by the signal to noise ratio of the FM output.
I'd suggest using something other than FM if you can find a good reference. Looking at the output of an
FM demod is going to mask most of the differences you're looking for, and you're much more likely to get
a very sharp cutoff between having good output, and not having an intelligible output at all.
David
--
JM Friedt, FEMTO-ST Time & Frequency/SENSeOR, 32 av. observatoire, 25044 Besancon, France
lists
2014-08-26 06:35:10 UTC
Permalink
Other than frequency translation, AM is basically a linear process. So
it will show THD, noise, etc.

BTW, my DVB-T dongle has a MCX connector. I'm not really sure how
serious these manufacturers are in controlling impedance. Maybe they
are 75 ohm, and maybe not. There are 75 ohm BNCs, as determined by the
center pin.

I have more audio than RF experience, but much of the testing is the
same. In audio, if you had your test source phased locked to the the
A/D, you SINAD can be computed direction from the FFT bins. Signal is
one bin, noise and distortion is everything else. [There is probably
some RMS addition of the bins, which you would have to look up.] Once
the source and sampler are not phased locked, then windowing comes into
play and things get more complicated.

It isn't all that different for your AM demodulated signal. In the case
of the DVB-T, they are not phased locked, so you will have to count a
certain number of bins as signals and the rest as noise.

For PSK or any type of digital demod, examining the eye or
constellation would make more sense. But I see nothing wrong with doing
all these evaluations with just AM, since it is a decent figure of
merit test.

It has been my experience just using these dongles as NFM or FM radios,
that they are not particularly good at low frequencies (in the 100MHz
range). I only use them for 1090MHz mode-s.

On Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:44:19 +0200
Post by friedtj
I have just reproduced all measurements making sure to compensate for
frequency offset between the synthesizer and the local oscillators of
the DVB-T, and added a table summarizing the measurements (peak power
and noise floor of the RF and FM-demodulated signals).
Could you please comment on the FM demodulation sudden drop ? This is
indeed what I observe but I fail understanding the cause. I have
access to most modulation schemes: could you please advise on which
would be most relevant ? I have selected FM because it is the
modulation scheme I am aiming at in the case of NOAA POES reception,
although the 1500 MHz measurements are targeted towards GPS reception
so PSK would be more relevant indeed.
Thanks, JM
Post by David Basden
Post by friedtj
In order to quantify my abilty to receive weather satellite
images using DVB-T running with GNURadio, I have setup a very
* tune a frequency synthesizer to 137 MHz, FM modulation, 5 kHz
deviation and 2400 Hz FM frequency
* frequency synthesizer output power setup to -91 or -101 dBm
(same setting for all receivers, 2 sets of measurements)
* connect the output of the synthesizer to the input of the DVB-T
(in all cases, a new BNC connector was solder instead of the
original 75-ohm antenna connector),
* plot the RF signal FFT and the FFT of a WBFM demodulator block
as found in GNURadio (always same settings: 30 dB IF gain and 30
dB RF gain)
* assess the receiver quality by the signal to noise ratio of the FM output.
I'd suggest using something other than FM if you can find a good
reference. Looking at the output of an FM demod is going to mask
most of the differences you're looking for, and you're much more
likely to get a very sharp cutoff between having good output, and
not having an intelligible output at all.
David
Jay Salsburg
2014-08-26 21:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Tuner input impedance varies over frequency. This has the effect of
non-linear Return Loss over the frequency range of RF energy arriving at the
input amplification device. This is caused by Phase Shift as parasitic LRC
at the input, the connector is a factor but the connector type whether F,
BNC, or MCX does not determine the characteristic input impedance of a tuner
or amplifier. The peaks and dips (usually 1 dip but sometimes 2) in the
Return Loss of a Tuner can vary as much as 30 dB or 1000 times, the dips are
usually very steep between 3 to 5 GHz.

Silicon transistors typically have a transition impedance from capacitive to
inductive around 300 MHz; series capacitive below 300 MHz, transitioning to
series inductive above 300 MHz (thus limiting its upper frequency
operation). Near 300 MHz, the impedance appears near resistive because the
phase shift at the gate or base of the silicon is near 0 at this frequency;
a matter of solid state physics.

For fixed frequency applications of tuners, to achieve maximum gain with
minimum noise, a matching network should be applied between the antennae and
the input of the tuner, preferably physically on the tuner input itself not
the antenna. Likewise, Matching Networks can be applied to the Antenna to
peak its gain but typically there is an amplifier between the antenna and
the tuner at the head end of the coaxial cable so peaking the antenna either
with a Matching Network or physically moving the relative orientation of the
(Driven) elements to peak the gain of the antenna is preferred. Antenna
impedance mismatch is a cause of loss of gain, so anything done to reduce
the parasitic loss of gain at the antenna reduces noise in the tuner. These
techniques are typically for applications of fixed frequency reception or
transmission.

Then there is reflection... this is why we have Balun Transformers.

Ideally, the tuner should be on the antenna with no feed coaxial cable; the
driven element of the antenna connected directly to the tuner's input. This
is why Tuner Dongles and single board SDRs are attractive, making it
possible (with difficulty) to place the tuner closer to the antennae. It is
now possible to wirelessly transfer the DATA from the tuner to the
Receiver/Computer with no physical wire connection between the tuner and the
receiver (SDR). IP/TCP-based DATA control/streaming is now a reality.

Lightning damage and Ground Loops are eliminated with wireless or fiber
communication.

Jay Salsburg

-------------------------
From:
http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/antennas/coax/rf-coaxial-cable-impedan
ce.php

Coax impedance / characteristic impedance
All feeders possess a characteristic impedance. For RF coax cable there are
two main standards that have been adopted over the years, namely 75 and 50
ohms.

75 ohm coax cable is used almost exclusively for domestic TV and VHF FM
applications. However for most commercial RF applications 50 ohms coax cable
has been taken as the standard for many years.

The reason for the choice of these two impedance standards is largely
historical but arises from the properties provided by the two impedance
levels:

75 ohm coax cable gives the minimum weight for a given loss
50 ohm coax cable gives the minimum loss for a given weight.
These two standards are used for the vast majority of coax cable which is
produced but it is still possible to obtain other impedances for specialist
applications. Higher values are often used for computer installations, but
other values including 25, 95 and 125 ohms are available. 25 ohm miniature
RF cable is extensively used in magnetic core broadband transformers. These
values and more are available through specialist coax cable suppliers.

-----Original Message-----
From: osmocom-sdr-***@lists.osmocom.org
[mailto:osmocom-sdr-***@lists.osmocom.org] On Behalf Of lists
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 1:35 AM
To: osmocom-***@lists.osmocom.org
Subject: Re: DVB-T receiver comparison

Other than frequency translation, AM is basically a linear process. So it
will show THD, noise, etc.

BTW, my DVB-T dongle has a MCX connector. I'm not really sure how serious
these manufacturers are in controlling impedance. Maybe they are 75 ohm, and
maybe not. There are 75 ohm BNCs, as determined by the center pin.

I have more audio than RF experience, but much of the testing is the same.
In audio, if you had your test source phased locked to the the A/D, you
SINAD can be computed direction from the FFT bins. Signal is one bin, noise
and distortion is everything else. [There is probably some RMS addition of
the bins, which you would have to look up.] Once the source and sampler are
not phased locked, then windowing comes into play and things get more
complicated.

It isn't all that different for your AM demodulated signal. In the case of
the DVB-T, they are not phased locked, so you will have to count a certain
number of bins as signals and the rest as noise.

For PSK or any type of digital demod, examining the eye or constellation
would make more sense. But I see nothing wrong with doing all these
evaluations with just AM, since it is a decent figure of merit test.

It has been my experience just using these dongles as NFM or FM radios, that
they are not particularly good at low frequencies (in the 100MHz range). I
only use them for 1090MHz mode-s.

On Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:44:19 +0200
Post by friedtj
I have just reproduced all measurements making sure to compensate for
frequency offset between the synthesizer and the local oscillators of
the DVB-T, and added a table summarizing the measurements (peak power
and noise floor of the RF and FM-demodulated signals).
Could you please comment on the FM demodulation sudden drop ? This is
indeed what I observe but I fail understanding the cause. I have
access to most modulation schemes: could you please advise on which
would be most relevant ? I have selected FM because it is the
modulation scheme I am aiming at in the case of NOAA POES reception,
although the 1500 MHz measurements are targeted towards GPS reception
so PSK would be more relevant indeed.
Thanks, JM
Post by David Basden
Post by friedtj
In order to quantify my abilty to receive weather satellite images
using DVB-T running with GNURadio, I have setup a very simple
* tune a frequency synthesizer to 137 MHz, FM modulation, 5 kHz
deviation and 2400 Hz FM frequency
* frequency synthesizer output power setup to -91 or -101 dBm
(same setting for all receivers, 2 sets of measurements)
* connect the output of the synthesizer to the input of the DVB-T
(in all cases, a new BNC connector was solder instead of the
original 75-ohm antenna connector),
* plot the RF signal FFT and the FFT of a WBFM demodulator block
as found in GNURadio (always same settings: 30 dB IF gain and 30
dB RF gain)
* assess the receiver quality by the signal to noise ratio of the FM output.
I'd suggest using something other than FM if you can find a good
reference. Looking at the output of an FM demod is going to mask
most of the differences you're looking for, and you're much more
likely to get a very sharp cutoff between having good output, and
not having an intelligible output at all.
David
-----
No virus found in this message.
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Version: 2013.0.3485 / Virus Database: 3955/8106 - Release Date: 08/26/14
Leif Asbrink
2014-08-29 19:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Hello JM,

The detected S/N is a non-linear function of the RF S/N in
FM mode. The detected S/N is better than the RF S/N at high
signal levels. The price one has to pay is a threshold below
which detected S/N drops very fast. This is very useful
for sensitivity measurement since the threshold is easily
established. You migt for example look for the signal
level that produces a detected S/N of 12 dB. When you
look at the spectrum of the audio that might correspond to
a level of the signal that would be 25 dB above the noise since
you would measure S and N in a bandwidth of the bin resolution
while one normally would measure N in the full bandwidth.

AM is also non-linear, but much less so while SSB is linear
having the same S/N in the audio as in the RF signal.

It is often better to talk about signal compared to the noise
density. (dB vs dB/Hz or dBm vs dBm/Hz.) That is equivalent to
normalizing the noise floor to 1 Hz bandwidth.

Room temperature is -174 dBm/Hz. If you find that a signal
level of for example -110 dBm gives S=-50dB while N=-100 dB/Hz
you can conclude that a signal of -160 dBm would give S=-90 dB.
An ideal (noise free receiver) would give S=N (in 1 Hz)
at -174 dBm so in this case the receiver degrades by 14 dB.
That means that the noise figure (NF) is 14 dB.

Measuring NF has to be done on the RF spectrum or in SSB mode,
but comparing the NF of different receivers is better done
in FM mode.

Regards

Leif
Leif Asbrink
2014-08-29 19:26:06 UTC
Permalink
Hello JM,
Post by friedtj
In order to quantify my abilty to receive weather satellite
images using DVB-T running with GNURadio,
* tune a frequency synthesizer to 137 MHz, FM modulation,
5 kHz deviation and 2400 Hz FM frequency
* frequency synthesizer output power setup to -91 or -101 dBm
(same setting for all receivers, 2 sets of measurements)
* connect the output of the synthesizer to the input of
the DVB-T (in all cases, a new BNC connector was solder instead
of the original 75-ohm antenna connector),
So far very good:-)
Post by friedtj
* plot the RF signal FFT and the FFT of a WBFM demodulator
block as found in GNURadio (always same settings: 30 dB IF
gain and 30 dB RF gain)
Hmmm, Dongles are different. I suggest that you compare them
at maximum gain which is different for different dongles.
Post by friedtj
* assess the receiver quality by the signal to noise ratio of the FM output.
This is a very good method - but it is necessary to place the
frequency right. I can see from your graphs that the signal is at
the passband centre where you have a spur and 1/F noise.

Repeat and place the FM modulated signal signal halfway between the
passband center and the passband edge. Your current results are not
valid because of the center spur which is within your passband.
Post by friedtj
Is this a reasonable way of assessing a receiver sensitivity ?
Is there some sort of well defined "protocol for
assessing a receiver quality for small signal detection ?
What you did is much better than the standard procedures (provided
you do it right with respect to the center spur (and any other spur)

You will get more understandable data if you attenuate your test
signal until you get the same S/N for the detected FM audio for
all dongles.

At some point you will find that S/N changes by something like 3 dB for
a 1 dB change of the input signal. At the point where S/N vs input signal
is steepest you get the best accuracy.

Regards

Leif
f***@free.fr
2014-08-30 08:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Tobias
2014-08-31 09:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leif Asbrink
Post by friedtj
* plot the RF signal FFT and the FFT of a WBFM demodulator
block as found in GNURadio (always same settings: 30 dB IF
gain and 30 dB RF gain)
Hmmm, Dongles are different. I suggest that you compare them
at maximum gain which is different for different dongles.
this is an issue I have been wondering about and maybe you or someone
on the list can comment: what are the gain ranges for the various
front ends ? I have not been able to identify neither in the source
code of osmosdr & rtl-sdr nor on the datasheets what the RF and IF
gain ranges are. Are they different for the E4K, FC0013 and R820T ?
If so indeed, I'll have to adjust the emitted power to observe a constant
received power.
Here you can find the RF-gain values for the supported dongles:

https://github.com/steve-m/librtlsdr/blob/master/src/librtlsdr.c#L945-L956

Regards,
Tobias
Post by Leif Asbrink
* assess the receiver quality by the signal to noise ratio of the FM
output. This is a very good method - but it is necessary to place the
frequency right. I can see from your graphs that the signal is at
the passband centre where you have a spur and 1/F noise.
this also explains what I observed when I was trying to reproduce the measuements
with AM: the signal would be lost if locking exactly on the carrier frequency due
to the band pass filter after the mixer in the zero-IF scheme. I was not
able to identify the reproducible setting condition you mention below
for the experiement: I will do so.
Post by Leif Asbrink
Repeat and place the FM modulated signal signal halfway between the
passband center and the passband edge. Your current results are not
valid because of the center spur which is within your passband.
Thank you for these informations. I am away from the lab next week but will
update the measurement results asap.
JM
Tobias
2014-08-31 20:08:17 UTC
Permalink
This is very helpful, I had not identified these lines before. Thank you.
Could you also clarify how IF gain and RF gain act ? I understand the
hardware architecture of where the two amplifiers are located, but am missing
how the settings act on each stage. Is the RF gain the RF-frontend gain or
the RF-frontend + IF gain ?
Sorry but I don't know anything about the IF gain. The API documentation
here indicates that the E4000 have six gain stages but for other tuners,
I don't know:

https://github.com/steve-m/librtlsdr/blob/master/include/rtl-sdr.h#L226-L234

Regards,
Tobias
Thanks, JM
----- Mail original -----
Envoyé: Dimanche 31 Août 2014 11:19:52
Objet: Re: DVB-T receiver comparison
Post by Leif Asbrink
Post by friedtj
* plot the RF signal FFT and the FFT of a WBFM demodulator
block as found in GNURadio (always same settings: 30 dB IF
gain and 30 dB RF gain)
Hmmm, Dongles are different. I suggest that you compare them
at maximum gain which is different for different dongles.
this is an issue I have been wondering about and maybe you or someone
on the list can comment: what are the gain ranges for the various
front ends ? I have not been able to identify neither in the source
code of osmosdr & rtl-sdr nor on the datasheets what the RF and IF
gain ranges are. Are they different for the E4K, FC0013 and R820T ?
If so indeed, I'll have to adjust the emitted power to observe a constant
received power.
https://github.com/steve-m/librtlsdr/blob/master/src/librtlsdr.c#L945-L956
Regards,
Tobias
Post by Leif Asbrink
* assess the receiver quality by the signal to noise ratio of the FM
output. This is a very good method - but it is necessary to place the
frequency right. I can see from your graphs that the signal is at
the passband centre where you have a spur and 1/F noise.
this also explains what I observed when I was trying to reproduce the measuements
with AM: the signal would be lost if locking exactly on the carrier frequency due
to the band pass filter after the mixer in the zero-IF scheme. I was not
able to identify the reproducible setting condition you mention below
for the experiement: I will do so.
Post by Leif Asbrink
Repeat and place the FM modulated signal signal halfway between the
passband center and the passband edge. Your current results are not
valid because of the center spur which is within your passband.
Thank you for these informations. I am away from the lab next week but will
update the measurement results asap.
JM
Alexander Kurpiers
2014-09-02 08:03:35 UTC
Permalink
this is an issue I have been wondering about and maybe you or someone
on the list can comment: what are the gain ranges for the various
front ends ? I have not been able to identify neither in the source
code of osmosdr & rtl-sdr nor on the datasheets what the RF and IF
gain ranges are. Are they different for the E4K, FC0013 and R820T ?
I had a look at the most popular ones:

The E4K has settings for LNA (-5..+25dB), mixer (4 or 12dB) and total of
6 IF gain stages with various gains allowing for 1dB steps between 3 and
57dB. The software only deals with LNA and mixer gain and not
independently. IF gain can be set through the API mentioned below.

R820T also has LNA, mixer and IF gain settings - the exact steps are not
known. The numbers in the library code are through measuring the gain at
a fixed frequency. That gave 0..33dB for the LNA, 0..16dB for the mixer
and -4.7..40.8dB for the IF gain. The current library does not expose
these settings through an API, only LNA and mixer are set through some
algorithm. IF gain is set to a fixed value.
This is very helpful, I had not identified these lines before. Thank you.
Could you also clarify how IF gain and RF gain act ? I understand the
hardware architecture of where the two amplifiers are located, but am missing
how the settings act on each stage. Is the RF gain the RF-frontend gain or
the RF-frontend + IF gain ?
Sorry but I don't know anything about the IF gain. The API
documentation here indicates that the E4000 have six gain stages but
https://github.com/steve-m/librtlsdr/blob/master/include/rtl-sdr.h#L226-L234
At least for R820T a similar interface would make sense.

I'm currently working on a more universal API, as the one above works
only for E4K.


Regards,

Alexander
f***@free.fr
2014-09-10 06:12:23 UTC
Permalink
f***@free.fr
2014-09-10 18:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Leif Asbrink
2014-09-10 23:56:15 UTC
Permalink
Hello JM,

Both methods should give the relative NF of the different dongles.
That means that the difference between the tables should be a constant.
This is what you have found:

Diff FM to AM
E4k FC0013 R820T
137 MHz 4 4 5
434 MHz 5 5 7
1090 MHz 5 4 4
1500 MHz 6 4 8
The table is the difference between two measurements so
uncertainties add. It seems the correct value is 4 to 5 dB
and that there is a small error at 1500 MHz for the R820T.

Regards

Leif
Here is an update of this morning's measurements, mostly consistent except for a couple of values
for which I must have forgotten to set the RF gain when launching the GNURadio application,
and the addition of the measurements at 1090 MHz
FM modulation: synthesizer output power in order to reach 10 dB SNR (3 kHz modulation,
5 kHz deviation). All values in dBm
E4k FC0013 R820T
137 MHz -105 -112 -112
434 MHz -105 -111 -112
1090 MHz -96 -76 -109
1500 MHz -95 -58 -102 <- major correction !
AM modulation: synthesizer output power in order to reach 10 dB SNR (3 kHz modulation,
30%). All values in dBm
E4k FC0013 R820T
137 MHz -109 -116 -117
434 MHz -110 -115 -119
1090 MHz -101 -80 -113
1500 MHz -101 -62 -110 <- major correction !
JM
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